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CNN LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER : Interview With Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili
BLITZER: All right. I think we've connected with the president of the republic of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili right now in Tbilisi. Mr. President, what is the latest as far as the actual battle, the fighting that is going on between your troops and the Russian troops?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, sorry, first of all, for this weird position, in a way. We sometimes -- our lines get under cyber attack, that's a new technology these days of war. But I can hear you well.
I think -- I mean, the point was that for the last several days, over 150 Russian tanks have entered the Georgian territories on the night of August 7th, and the whole hostility erupted when we responded to the tanks entering the Georgian territory. We had three days of fighting, but mostly we had -- besides fighting, the main thing was three days of intensifying bombing of Georgia and basically the bombing of 90 percent of predominantly civilian targets.
BLITZER: Is it true, Mr. President -- excuse me for interrupting -- that Russian war planes have now bombed the international airport where you are in Tbilisi? SAAKASHVILI: They've targeted international airport on a number of occasions. By the way, half an hour before French foreign minister and the Finnish foreign minister happened to land there, but I don't know exactly what the damage is.
But they've been hitting -- you know, yesterday they blew up the whole residential quarter, killing lots and lots of people. Today, they just hit a residential area in Tbilisi out of any strategic war military or anything, any enterprise. They've been continuously hitting some companies here.
But I was turning in Georgia, I have to explain to you just what's happening now. The South Ossetia is here. In South Ossetia, we control always this part and then Russian-backed separatists, basically Russia directly administered this part.
Now -- but Russian troops entered in from here, from here and Russian troops also came to our border here, with 100 tanks yesterday night. Here in Abkhazia, Russians entered yesterday with 100 plus tanks. They already had hundreds in place, and 10,000 or 15,000 extra troops. So they're here basically in this area.
BLITZER: The Russians, as you know -- excuse me for a second, the Russians are now disputing assertions from your government that you have pulled out your troops from these disputed areas of Abkhazia.
SAAKASHVILI: Well, look -- I mean, there have been no troops in Abkhazia, we are speaking about South Ossetia.
But we are not crazy. We are talking about mass (inaudible) land intrusion of Russia into any countries, bigger than with the force -- the tank force that went into Afghanistan in 1979 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. So certainly we don't have an interest in pursuing...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Excuse me, excuse me. Mr. President, have you removed your troops from South Abkhazia? Ossetia, excuse me.
SAAKASHVILI: Ossetia?
BLITZER: Yeah.
SAAKASHVILI: I mean, we relocated -- we had our troops in the town of Tskhinvali, and we relocated them out of the town of Tskhinvali outside the zone where they usually were stationed before, after they've completed the task of cleaning there -- basically, they're out. They're out. I can confirm.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Because they're denying -- the Russian foreign minister is denying it.
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I mean -- again, we have no interest whatsoever in pursuing hostilities. This civilian targeting and casualties should stop now. Today I was traveling for the road in Georgia, and I saw with my own eyes, because I also can't take planes because the air belongs now to the Russians -- I saw with my own eyes, it's a holiday season and people are going and now running back to from the seaside holidays and from the mountains, because they had to find safe refuge.
SAAKASHVILI: And I saw with my own eyes how Russian planes were descending very low on the over the road, chasing the cars and dropping bombs in proximity of the place where there was a compilation of cars.
So this is -- this is -- you know, I'm president of the country, driving -- also, I'm protected, a bigger target like my fellow citizens. But I had to drive there, and they couldn't do anything about it. It is a tragic situation. And we need to...
BLITZER: Mr. President...
SAAKASHVILI: And we need to stop...
BLITZER: Mr. President, I just want to alert our viewers, we may lose the satellite. If it goes down, that will be the explanation.
But what do you want the United States, right now, to do?
SAAKASHVILI: The United States and the world community should stop intervention and invasion of my sovereign country...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: How should the U.S. do that?
SAAKASHVILI: I think the U.S. is the most powerful country in the world. I think the U.S. has lots of leverage. And I think there are lots of diplomatic means that it could be done through.
And, basically, I think this is not about Georgia anymore. This is about basic values of humanity, of American values that we always, ourselves, believed in. This is all about human rights. This is all about the future of the world order. And I think there are much bigger things that are at stake here than just Georgia.
For me, it's all about my country. But for the wider world, it's about the future world order. Something that's happening here, you know, people -- history will judge very badly people who are doing this...
BLITZER: Well, let me ask...
SAAKASHVILI: ... killing (ph) innocent civilians.
BLITZER: Let me ask a blunt question. Would you like the United States to offer military assistance to your country right now?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I wouldn't speculate about it, because I think our forces are capable enough, and they've been really doing a good job. But, you know, we need to stop hostility. We don't need further military action. We need to stop it. We need to bring back peace. And a cease-fire is about both sides (inaudible).
We proclaimed a cease-fire. We are willing to sign the document on non-use of force and nonresumption of hostilities. We are willing to be as flexible as we can on solving the issues. We need to bring back peace and to stop these innocent -- senseless, brutal, absolutely unacceptable killings.
BLITZER: The Russians say that you personally, Mr. President, should be held accountable for this very dangerous situation by your actions over the past few days. They call them a criminal political decision that you took.
Let me play this little clip. I interviewed, in the last hour, the charge d'affairs at the Russian embassy here in Washington, and he leveled a direct charge against you. Listen to this Russian diplomat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARCHIEV: He should be held accountable for the barbaric and treacherous attack on innocent civilians in South Ossetia, that he should be held accountable for the aggression against South Ossetia.
And the best thing he could do right now is to unconditionally -- I repeat -- unconditionally withdraw his troops and sign a legally binding agreement with Ossetians on non-use of force.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right, Mr. President, do you want to respond?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I mean, it sounds a little -- quite Orwellian to me and a little bit like old times, which I still remember. I was the youngest president of the world when I got elected, but I still remember old times and I still remember Brezhnev's times.
But the point here is the following. We are talking about a place just in the middle of Georgia, in the middle of my country. How can I invade the middle of my country?
What's the -- it's the contradiction in terms. And what we are talking about is we are talking about -- we controlled most of this area always, but there is a small area directly administered and run by the Russians.
And, you know, when they talk about South Ossetian separatists and say "South Ossetian tank," what kind of South Ossetian tank can live there? It is a Russian tank. You know, what kind of South Ossetian soldiers are that? These are soldiers in the service of the Russian army, trained by them, equipped by them, very well armed by them. So what we are saying right now is that this place needs to get rid of this military thing (ph). They need to get -- to be cleaned, you know, of all this violence. And this place needs to get back to normal. And certainly... BLITZER: Are you ready, Mr. President, to go back -- are you ready to go back to the status quo ante, what existed last week when there were Russian peacekeepers in that area before the situation escalated?
SAAKASHVILI: There were Russian peacekeepers and there were Georgian peacekeepers. And certainly we are willing to go to status quo ante, but certainly this mass intrusion of troops stop, troops should withdraw from sovereign Georgian territory, and we should do our best to just demilitarize the areas and then protect the civilians.
You know, the point here is we have the population here that is under our control is ethnically Georgian, but also mixed, because we are a multi-ethnic country. There is this town of Tskhinvali that was under control of the Russian peacekeepers, and that's fine. So far as we should do our best not to allow a resumption of criminal activities. And you know, shooting at people, smuggling, all kinds of illicit things. And that has been happening, and Russians have always been agreed with us that there was a problem.
The point here is that it got to the point when it's not just a matter of not anymore respecting the borders. And the borders on the Caucuses are built very high. These are very, very high mountains, and we have such a natural boundary that can hardly be overcome even by fast-flying Russian jets.
BLITZER: But Mr. President, do you honestly believe that Georgia's relatively modest military can compete with a superpower like Russia?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I mean, I would be crazy to believe that. But you know, we are a free, small, freedom-loving nation. And certainly, you know, freedom is not about size. Freedom is about our ability to, you know, stand up for your ideals, even if it comes at sacrifice of your life. Certainly, freedom is about living normal lives and not killing or getting killed.
But I mean, it's very unfortunate circumstances, and I regret loss of life on both sides. But the point here is, our troops have been performing very well, but now we really absolutely need to halt these hostilities, because it's killing people. And it's killing much more civilians than it can ever kill the troops.
You know, the planes that are flying over, Georgian troops shot down almost 20 of them. Because they're equipped, they have the air defenses, but civilians on the ground, on the roads, in the crowded cafes, at their apartments where they got killed when the whole residential area was destroyed, they're not equipped with air defenses and we cannot supply them with air defenses. So the point here is that it's exactly doing that. So it's not about troops performing or not performing. Its' right now a huge human tragedy on the ground, and we absolutely need it to stop.
BLITZER: The Russians say that your troops have killed some 2,000 people in Ossetia among other places. Do you have any estimates as far as how many people have been killed and injured so far over the course of these few days of warfare that's been going on?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, let's put it this way. The town of Tskhinvali by the moment when Georgian troops entered it didn't even have that much number of people. It's a very, very small town. And prior to the fighting, anticipating the fighting, local Russian authorities evacuated most of the population. And we didn't anticipate fighting. Apparently, they did.
And we only responded when after many hours of artillery barrage, after a unilateral cease-fire declared by us that killed lots of people, by the way, because we wouldn't respond on our side.
Then when I heard around 11:30, 11:50 p.m. that 150 Russian tanks are entering our sovereign territory from this place -- there is a very mountain -- you know, long, mountainous tunnel called the Rocky Tunnel -- into the Georgian territory, our forces were stationed somewhere here. So when they got entered, the only way we could get them was to respond with artillery fire to stop mass land invasion of the sort that happened to Afghanistan and Czechoslovakia in 1968.
BLITZER: All right.
SAAKASHVILI: Now...
BLITZER: Let me interrupt for a second, Mr. President...
SAAKASHVILI: Of course, of course, of course there were -- yes.
BLITZER: A quick question about American citizens. I take it some of them are being removed. There's a corridor that they're getting out right now. About 2,000 U.S. citizens live in Georgia. Is that right?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, one has to say that America is very highly regarded in Georgia. By the way, that's maybe one of the reasons why we're being attacked. You know, one of the bombs -- one of the unexploded bombs found on a shut down Russian plane yesterday, tragicomically said, "this is for Americans, this is for NATO," in Russian. And it didn't explode.
But of course, you know, as much as we love Americans here, nobody is safe right now. And that's -- I deeply regret to say that.
And the point here is that today, two journalists from the West, one Georgian and one Polish, were killed in Tskhinvali by the fire of entering troops from Russia.
BLITZER: Mr. President -- Mr. President ... SAAKASHVILI: And this is very unfortunate. I want to express my deep condolences to their families. And please, we should halt this violence, halt this madness.
BLITZER: Mr. President, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there, but we'll stay in close touch with you. The president of the Republic of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, joining us live from Tbilisi. Thanks very much. SAAKASHVILI: Thanks so much, sir.
BLITZER: That's it for today's "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "Fareed Zakaria GPS" starts in just a moment.
BLITZER: All right. I think we've connected with the president of the republic of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili right now in Tbilisi. Mr. President, what is the latest as far as the actual battle, the fighting that is going on between your troops and the Russian troops?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, sorry, first of all, for this weird position, in a way. We sometimes -- our lines get under cyber attack, that's a new technology these days of war. But I can hear you well.
I think -- I mean, the point was that for the last several days, over 150 Russian tanks have entered the Georgian territories on the night of August 7th, and the whole hostility erupted when we responded to the tanks entering the Georgian territory. We had three days of fighting, but mostly we had -- besides fighting, the main thing was three days of intensifying bombing of Georgia and basically the bombing of 90 percent of predominantly civilian targets.
BLITZER: Is it true, Mr. President -- excuse me for interrupting -- that Russian war planes have now bombed the international airport where you are in Tbilisi? SAAKASHVILI: They've targeted international airport on a number of occasions. By the way, half an hour before French foreign minister and the Finnish foreign minister happened to land there, but I don't know exactly what the damage is.
But they've been hitting -- you know, yesterday they blew up the whole residential quarter, killing lots and lots of people. Today, they just hit a residential area in Tbilisi out of any strategic war military or anything, any enterprise. They've been continuously hitting some companies here.
But I was turning in Georgia, I have to explain to you just what's happening now. The South Ossetia is here. In South Ossetia, we control always this part and then Russian-backed separatists, basically Russia directly administered this part.
Now -- but Russian troops entered in from here, from here and Russian troops also came to our border here, with 100 tanks yesterday night. Here in Abkhazia, Russians entered yesterday with 100 plus tanks. They already had hundreds in place, and 10,000 or 15,000 extra troops. So they're here basically in this area.
BLITZER: The Russians, as you know -- excuse me for a second, the Russians are now disputing assertions from your government that you have pulled out your troops from these disputed areas of Abkhazia.
SAAKASHVILI: Well, look -- I mean, there have been no troops in Abkhazia, we are speaking about South Ossetia.
But we are not crazy. We are talking about mass (inaudible) land intrusion of Russia into any countries, bigger than with the force -- the tank force that went into Afghanistan in 1979 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. So certainly we don't have an interest in pursuing...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Excuse me, excuse me. Mr. President, have you removed your troops from South Abkhazia? Ossetia, excuse me.
SAAKASHVILI: Ossetia?
BLITZER: Yeah.
SAAKASHVILI: I mean, we relocated -- we had our troops in the town of Tskhinvali, and we relocated them out of the town of Tskhinvali outside the zone where they usually were stationed before, after they've completed the task of cleaning there -- basically, they're out. They're out. I can confirm.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Because they're denying -- the Russian foreign minister is denying it.
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I mean -- again, we have no interest whatsoever in pursuing hostilities. This civilian targeting and casualties should stop now. Today I was traveling for the road in Georgia, and I saw with my own eyes, because I also can't take planes because the air belongs now to the Russians -- I saw with my own eyes, it's a holiday season and people are going and now running back to from the seaside holidays and from the mountains, because they had to find safe refuge.
SAAKASHVILI: And I saw with my own eyes how Russian planes were descending very low on the over the road, chasing the cars and dropping bombs in proximity of the place where there was a compilation of cars.
So this is -- this is -- you know, I'm president of the country, driving -- also, I'm protected, a bigger target like my fellow citizens. But I had to drive there, and they couldn't do anything about it. It is a tragic situation. And we need to...
BLITZER: Mr. President...
SAAKASHVILI: And we need to stop...
BLITZER: Mr. President, I just want to alert our viewers, we may lose the satellite. If it goes down, that will be the explanation.
But what do you want the United States, right now, to do?
SAAKASHVILI: The United States and the world community should stop intervention and invasion of my sovereign country...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: How should the U.S. do that?
SAAKASHVILI: I think the U.S. is the most powerful country in the world. I think the U.S. has lots of leverage. And I think there are lots of diplomatic means that it could be done through.
And, basically, I think this is not about Georgia anymore. This is about basic values of humanity, of American values that we always, ourselves, believed in. This is all about human rights. This is all about the future of the world order. And I think there are much bigger things that are at stake here than just Georgia.
For me, it's all about my country. But for the wider world, it's about the future world order. Something that's happening here, you know, people -- history will judge very badly people who are doing this...
BLITZER: Well, let me ask...
SAAKASHVILI: ... killing (ph) innocent civilians.
BLITZER: Let me ask a blunt question. Would you like the United States to offer military assistance to your country right now?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I wouldn't speculate about it, because I think our forces are capable enough, and they've been really doing a good job. But, you know, we need to stop hostility. We don't need further military action. We need to stop it. We need to bring back peace. And a cease-fire is about both sides (inaudible).
We proclaimed a cease-fire. We are willing to sign the document on non-use of force and nonresumption of hostilities. We are willing to be as flexible as we can on solving the issues. We need to bring back peace and to stop these innocent -- senseless, brutal, absolutely unacceptable killings.
BLITZER: The Russians say that you personally, Mr. President, should be held accountable for this very dangerous situation by your actions over the past few days. They call them a criminal political decision that you took.
Let me play this little clip. I interviewed, in the last hour, the charge d'affairs at the Russian embassy here in Washington, and he leveled a direct charge against you. Listen to this Russian diplomat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARCHIEV: He should be held accountable for the barbaric and treacherous attack on innocent civilians in South Ossetia, that he should be held accountable for the aggression against South Ossetia.
And the best thing he could do right now is to unconditionally -- I repeat -- unconditionally withdraw his troops and sign a legally binding agreement with Ossetians on non-use of force.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right, Mr. President, do you want to respond?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I mean, it sounds a little -- quite Orwellian to me and a little bit like old times, which I still remember. I was the youngest president of the world when I got elected, but I still remember old times and I still remember Brezhnev's times.
But the point here is the following. We are talking about a place just in the middle of Georgia, in the middle of my country. How can I invade the middle of my country?
What's the -- it's the contradiction in terms. And what we are talking about is we are talking about -- we controlled most of this area always, but there is a small area directly administered and run by the Russians.
And, you know, when they talk about South Ossetian separatists and say "South Ossetian tank," what kind of South Ossetian tank can live there? It is a Russian tank. You know, what kind of South Ossetian soldiers are that? These are soldiers in the service of the Russian army, trained by them, equipped by them, very well armed by them. So what we are saying right now is that this place needs to get rid of this military thing (ph). They need to get -- to be cleaned, you know, of all this violence. And this place needs to get back to normal. And certainly... BLITZER: Are you ready, Mr. President, to go back -- are you ready to go back to the status quo ante, what existed last week when there were Russian peacekeepers in that area before the situation escalated?
SAAKASHVILI: There were Russian peacekeepers and there were Georgian peacekeepers. And certainly we are willing to go to status quo ante, but certainly this mass intrusion of troops stop, troops should withdraw from sovereign Georgian territory, and we should do our best to just demilitarize the areas and then protect the civilians.
You know, the point here is we have the population here that is under our control is ethnically Georgian, but also mixed, because we are a multi-ethnic country. There is this town of Tskhinvali that was under control of the Russian peacekeepers, and that's fine. So far as we should do our best not to allow a resumption of criminal activities. And you know, shooting at people, smuggling, all kinds of illicit things. And that has been happening, and Russians have always been agreed with us that there was a problem.
The point here is that it got to the point when it's not just a matter of not anymore respecting the borders. And the borders on the Caucuses are built very high. These are very, very high mountains, and we have such a natural boundary that can hardly be overcome even by fast-flying Russian jets.
BLITZER: But Mr. President, do you honestly believe that Georgia's relatively modest military can compete with a superpower like Russia?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, I mean, I would be crazy to believe that. But you know, we are a free, small, freedom-loving nation. And certainly, you know, freedom is not about size. Freedom is about our ability to, you know, stand up for your ideals, even if it comes at sacrifice of your life. Certainly, freedom is about living normal lives and not killing or getting killed.
But I mean, it's very unfortunate circumstances, and I regret loss of life on both sides. But the point here is, our troops have been performing very well, but now we really absolutely need to halt these hostilities, because it's killing people. And it's killing much more civilians than it can ever kill the troops.
You know, the planes that are flying over, Georgian troops shot down almost 20 of them. Because they're equipped, they have the air defenses, but civilians on the ground, on the roads, in the crowded cafes, at their apartments where they got killed when the whole residential area was destroyed, they're not equipped with air defenses and we cannot supply them with air defenses. So the point here is that it's exactly doing that. So it's not about troops performing or not performing. Its' right now a huge human tragedy on the ground, and we absolutely need it to stop.
BLITZER: The Russians say that your troops have killed some 2,000 people in Ossetia among other places. Do you have any estimates as far as how many people have been killed and injured so far over the course of these few days of warfare that's been going on?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, let's put it this way. The town of Tskhinvali by the moment when Georgian troops entered it didn't even have that much number of people. It's a very, very small town. And prior to the fighting, anticipating the fighting, local Russian authorities evacuated most of the population. And we didn't anticipate fighting. Apparently, they did.
And we only responded when after many hours of artillery barrage, after a unilateral cease-fire declared by us that killed lots of people, by the way, because we wouldn't respond on our side.
Then when I heard around 11:30, 11:50 p.m. that 150 Russian tanks are entering our sovereign territory from this place -- there is a very mountain -- you know, long, mountainous tunnel called the Rocky Tunnel -- into the Georgian territory, our forces were stationed somewhere here. So when they got entered, the only way we could get them was to respond with artillery fire to stop mass land invasion of the sort that happened to Afghanistan and Czechoslovakia in 1968.
BLITZER: All right.
SAAKASHVILI: Now...
BLITZER: Let me interrupt for a second, Mr. President...
SAAKASHVILI: Of course, of course, of course there were -- yes.
BLITZER: A quick question about American citizens. I take it some of them are being removed. There's a corridor that they're getting out right now. About 2,000 U.S. citizens live in Georgia. Is that right?
SAAKASHVILI: Well, one has to say that America is very highly regarded in Georgia. By the way, that's maybe one of the reasons why we're being attacked. You know, one of the bombs -- one of the unexploded bombs found on a shut down Russian plane yesterday, tragicomically said, "this is for Americans, this is for NATO," in Russian. And it didn't explode.
But of course, you know, as much as we love Americans here, nobody is safe right now. And that's -- I deeply regret to say that.
And the point here is that today, two journalists from the West, one Georgian and one Polish, were killed in Tskhinvali by the fire of entering troops from Russia.
BLITZER: Mr. President -- Mr. President ... SAAKASHVILI: And this is very unfortunate. I want to express my deep condolences to their families. And please, we should halt this violence, halt this madness.
BLITZER: Mr. President, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there, but we'll stay in close touch with you. The president of the Republic of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, joining us live from Tbilisi. Thanks very much. SAAKASHVILI: Thanks so much, sir.
BLITZER: That's it for today's "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "Fareed Zakaria GPS" starts in just a moment.
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